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Thank you for visiting Wine Camp. I created Wine Camp to promote the discussion of terroir driven wines in a points free environment. I believe the current addiction to the 100 point scale pulls many consumers away from wines with grace, complexity and a true sense of place. Here you will find no rankings and all of the wines in my wine notes are recommended. The only exception you’ll find is if I think a particular brand is a consumer rip-off that needs exposing as in this post.

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« Wine Pics -Foggy Dawn over Dundee Hills, Oregon | Main | Wine 2.O »
Thursday
17Jan

The 60 Second Taster

I’ve now been a wine professional for over thirty years. Before I got in the wine making side of the business I was a wine distributor for almost twenty years. The low point of that experience was more-often-than-not the presentations to retailers. You’d take samples of wines from small estates, where the producers sweated every day over their vines and wines passionately trying to make the best wines they could, and present them to the buyers. Often you were in some seedy back room and the resident wine expert would rapidly blow through the samples making instant pronouncements on the life’s work of others and then subject you to enduring their pontification on the qualities of each wine. Sometimes they would have cheap Libby glasses, but usually they would make their judgments out of plastic cups. You would often have to wait in line for the privilege presenting wines to these “connoisseurs”. Perhaps in their defense it should be noted that they worked brutally long hours for very little pay and this probably forced them into such foul moods and the need to exert whatever power and humiliation they could over sales people and the samples of their poor producers. The best account of this horror is the now famous The Three-Tier Schnook System by Joe Dressner.

Fortunately I have not had to be exposed to such a situation in years, but today something brought that feeling chillingly back to me. I finally saw my first episode of Wine Library TV. There before my eyes was that retailer of my past, only with a Riedel glass instead of a plastic cup. That, at least, is a little progress. I had tried to avoid watching his programs after first seeing him in a horribly embarrassing segment on the Conan O’ Brien Show, but I kept getting so many hits to this site from a link that someone had placed to one of my posts that I had to check it out. That was a mistake as I should have followed my instincts and stayed away, but like someone passing a car wreck I could not avert my eyes.

Under cover of supposedly witty banter, Gary Vaynerchuk with a minute or less thought tells you all you need to know about the wine he is tasting. Not only that, but he actually gives you points so you can have an exact reference to how a wine tastes and can rank it among other wine choices. Well actually he only gives you an accurate reference point if you only drink a wine for sixty seconds before moving on to the next bottle. Once again someone is gaining influence by rating wines in a situation that has nothing to do with how we actually drink them. Many writers over the years have complained that Robert Parker’s method of tasting sometimes hundreds of wines in very short periods, often giving wines scores after only seconds, did not allow for wines of elegance to show their true character, while big alcoholic wines that were not very good to drink full glasses of stood out under the onslaught he put his palate through. Lately we have all been hoping that the explosion of wine blogs would bring so many voices to the consumer that the monochromatic recommendations of someone like Robert Parker would never again dominate the market. The apparent popularity of Wine Library TV once again dashes our hopes as yet again we have someone pumping out casual opinions as calibrated pointy facts after only a few seconds of consideration. Anyone who has tasted a really memorable wine remembers how the wine evolved and developed as you drank it and how the symbiosis of wine and food expanded the experience to a new plane. An experience taking something more than a minute. The method of tasting on Wine Library TV ignores this most alluring facet of wine.

I’ll admit that my dislike of these programs is probably partially generational as I don’t find him funny, just hyper and trying too hard to be cool. However, what bothers me most of all is the lightness which people like Mr. Vaynerchuk take someone else’s’ life’s work. If you define a wine after only a few tastes you will make a lot of mistakes. It seems irresponsible to turn such shallow experience into recommendations that will impact what people will buy. It should be remembered that Wine Library TV is a product that Mr. Vaynerchuk is selling and that the attitudes that he takes are more about selling his product than accurately reviewing wines. Just as The Wine Spectator is not about selling wines, but about selling magazines, Wine Library TV is about getting hits, not about wine. Such advise should be taken with caution.

The Internet’s most passionate wine programming? How sad.

 

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Reader Comments (42)

You have some valid points and I understand where you are coming from in a big time way! I hope one day we can cross paths and you can get to know me better and know who I am and what i am about. I really do! Stay well and stay passionate because you clearly are about this amazing world and that is amazingly inspiring!
January 18, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterGary Vaynerchuk
Hi Craig,

This is an interesting post. I'm tempted to agree with you at first but upon further review I think that you are missing some important aspects of Gary's approach to wine in general. Gary brings a lot of fun into wine drinking by taking a casual approach and re-enforcing time and time again that people should drink what tastes good to them, not what tastes good to the critics including himself. That's in my opinion what is missing so often from the world of wine. A vast majority of Americans feel scared to talk about wine and some to even drink it because the so called “connoisseurs” make people think that they must have a degree in all things wine related. You say <<rating wines in a situation that has nothing to do with how we actually drink them>> I disagree… at least partially. The majority of consumers do actually drink their wines immediately upon opening the bottle. Should they? No, but they do. Some because they don't know any better, many because life is just too busy to have to wait for a bottle of wine to breath and evolve before having dinner, cleaning the dishes, bathing the kids, reading the bedtime story and paying the bills before going to bed. I drink wine every night sitting right next to my 1 and 4 year old kids. You cannot imagine how incredibly difficult it is for me to concentrate on the wine and appreciate everything that it can offer. So, that first taste is often what I go by in deciding if I would by that wine again. I certainly agree that many wines need some time to evolve after opening the bottle and that food does wonders to a wine - I’ve also experienced this many times. But overall, I’m betting (I have no hard data to back this up) that Gary’s approach is not dramatically out of touch with the reality of how a family consumes their wine. I think that it is important to educate people about wine drinking but this has to be done in a way that leaves people feeling comfortable and having fun. Gary’s approach may not be perfect but to me it certainly is does that.
January 18, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterMarco
Marco - I am all for the fun and entertaining side of Gary's shows. However, most wine consuming is not done in this way. Who takes a few sips out of glass and tosses it out. I was not referring to letting a wine breathe, but to the fact the most of us spend much more time with a wine over the course of a meal and come to know it in much deeper ways than anyone can in a rapid fire tasting. I do not mean to criticize Gary's intentions or talents, just the results. As long as he gives points and rankings after such a brief interaction with a wine I have a problem with it.

My major objection to rankings produced in such a way is they cannot be reproduced. If we lined up fifteen of these wines and had Gary (or anybody) rank them, then took the same wines and changed the order you would get different rankings. The same goes if you changed the day as the ability of the taster, yes even that tasting machine Robert Parker, varies from day-to-day and even from morning to afternoon.

If Gary would just give his opinions and descriptions I would have no problem, but as soon as points are introduced it changes everything.
January 18, 2008 | Registered CommenterCraig Camp
Gary - I'm sure you are passionate and have great integrity. It's only the pointy system you are using and how quickly you arrive at those rankings that I disagree with. Congratulations on your success, but remember when you casually give a wine 89 points instead of 90 points it means something to consumers, while we know there is no difference, the buying public does not treat it that way.
January 18, 2008 | Registered CommenterCraig Camp
Hopefully wine on web TV will get better. It can't get worse, can it?
January 18, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterMarco Romano
Craig, I've just read your update to the original post. I understand and agree with your comments regarding the quick scores and how it impacts people's decision making. I just thought that in your original post you focused on this one negative aspect of the show but said nothing in regards to what is positive about winelibrary.tv. I wish Gary would have elaborated a bit more in his response to your valid argument.
January 18, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterMarco Montez
What would be wrong in rating wines: Highly Recommended, Recommended, etc.?
January 18, 2008 | Registered CommenterCraig Camp
There is simply too much wine to taste and evaluate for even a small percentage to be scored. And like you said people tastes change from day to day, morning to night, or even glass to glass. If that is the case, there is no way to score with 100% accuracy. I like WLTV and know that I will not always agree with Gary. But, it gives me a starting point. I will not buy wine for the label, so unless I have personal experience with the wine, I look for tasting notes and ratings. I have wasted way too much money buying some bottle the "the wine guy" recommended in the shop. There is a wine shop in Denver that does mini tastings every Thursday night and I try and stop by on my way home, when I can. And guess what, I have to make my decision in 1 oz. With that in mind, what is wrong with Gary giving his opinion in the internationally accepted rating system.
January 18, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterTodd S
Exactly, there is no way to score with 100% accuracy. Just because the 100 point scale has been commercially successful there is no more reason to use it than there is to eat at McDonald's.The 100 point scale has been a commercial success, that's all and that's why so many writers use it: because it sells what they are selling. That's why Gary uses it too. It's certainly not because he believes in it.There is nothing wrong with Gary giving his opinion, which he seems to do in a style that many people like. However, using the 100 point scale is conforming to many things that he says he is against and is a disservice to both his audience and to wine producers and dilutes what he claims to be is mission.
January 18, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterCraig Camp
Craig, bravo on exposing the fallacy and downside of speed tastings and point awards such as those featured on Wine Library TV. As much as I find Gary's commentary humorous, it comes with a heavy price. For his approach only serves to extend the notion that wine is a cocktail, a drink to be assessed with one sip and quickly measured in points.

Unfortunately, this cost appears to be lost on the local cheerleaders out there who praise Gary's efforts for highlighting Washington state wines in his shows. Granted, the exposure is welcome and very much needed, but should it be endorsed in this form? Like you, I would rather see folks praising our region's wines as a result of enjoying them during a slow paced dinner, rather than a quick taste and spit.

Fortunately, a better approach exists in the show, The 3 Wine Guys. This podcast features three guys who share their experiences with different wines served during dinner together. Their wine reviews are grounded in sharing a meal together. Best of all, you get three perspectives on each wine, sometimes in agreement or far apart. If you can get past the show's occasional explicit humor, then you will find a truly unique approach toward discovering new wines.
January 19, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterThad
Craig, you can read more about The 3 Wine Guys in a post I published a few months back. They've done a few shows on Oregon pinot noir, which you might find informative. Cheers!

http://beyondthebottle.com/blog/2007/10/why_i_like_the_3_wine_guys_1.html
January 19, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterThad
Wow. A *very* interesting post and the thoughts certainly extend beyond just Wine Library TV - there are many point systems out there, and I have to say that the more I learn about the wonderful world of wine the less I care about number ratings in general.

I think they have their place, but points really tell you about a wine's relative quality - not whether or not you're prone to liking that wine. Which is why I advocate a structured tasting method for getting to know *personal* wine preferences better (rather than relying just on scores) - http://1winedude.blogspot.com/2008/01/1winewine-dude-ebook-how-to-taste-like.html .
January 19, 2008 | Unregistered Commenter1WineDude
Craig: It's validating to hear a veteran saying this because I sure can't figure out a wine in a few sips, and I like to go back to the same wine over the course of a few days to get the full experience. I don't know if Gary tastes the wines he features beforehand--I would hope so. I guess he is limited by the format (so many wines; so little time). It probably wouldn't be as popular if he sat there tasting one wine for 20 minutes. On the bright side, perhaps Gary's introduction to wine gives some the courage to go out on their own and start experimenting with wines they otherwise would have been afraid to try.
January 20, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterTasterB
Some of the points you mentioned are valid, but keep in mind that many times Gary stated that he gives his scores because he likes it, and you shouldn't trust his, Parker's, or anyone else's scores, but instead "build your own palate". I think it is obvious that nobody should dogmatically follow other person's opinion, be it stated by professionals w/30+ years experience or Vaynerchuk. The scores are for reference only and should be treated as such. In my opinion this also applies to tastings that last longer than "30 seconds". For the results to be "truly fair" you should perform double blind tasting for many hours (see articles). But there are too many factors which affect that, so the conclusion is that in reality there is no fair ranking that would be feasible.

You regret the fact that some people may base their choices solely on what Gary says, but notice that many of them (including me) wouldn't even condsider "getting into wine" if it hadn't been for the show. I think that I am not exaggerating, I stumbled upon the Wine Library TV and it helped to convince me that you don't have to be a wine snob to embrace and enjoy wine.
January 21, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterMajor Bugger
If he does not believe points are a good thing he should not use them and come up with a more creative and personal solution. While scores should be used for reference only everyone know that they are more usually used as a shopping list.

As far as the "wine snob" thing I think that's a concept that died years ago. As I wine snob myself I can say that with authority.

As I mentioned above, I applaud Mr.Vaynerchuk for the entertaining format, but object to the way he scores wines.
January 21, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterCraig Camp
"It probably wouldn't be as popular if he sat there tasting one wine for 20 minutes."

That's the rub, thoughtful commentary doesn't sell. People want to know the winning wine only. Wine TV needs to be sold so he uses points.

Everyone who knows anything about wines knows that the better the wine is the more it will change and develop in the glass. It's the mass produced industrial wines that don't change from minute-to-minute or, for that matter, bottle-to-bottle or year-to-year. Perhaps points are the best way to rate such wines. However, living wines are always a moving target hiding and showing different things as you experience them. The better the wine is the less you can understand in just a few minutes.
January 21, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterCraig Camp
Craig - I cannot tell you how great I think it is that you wrote this piece. This Wine Library TV is a really popular thing that everyone seems to like, and it took some guts to thoughtfully and respectfully explain why you are not a fan. I appreciate your willingness to risk taking an unpopular position.
January 22, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterBrooklynguy
Seems that Episode #392 addresses your concerns. Watch it if you have time.
January 24, 2008 | Unregistered Commenterlol
Craig, Kudos to you for bringing up the fact that the efforts made by all the parties involved in winemaking(including mother nature!!) are very often unfairly discarded by the absurd point/rating systems. As it's been said so many times it's difficult to put in paper your experience with a particular wine and also how your experience will be relevant to the guy reading your notes. It's a lot easier when the experiences are disclosed to friends but difficult to transmit when you talk to the general public. On the other hand I would recognize Gary Vaynerchuk for trying to educate and bring people into the wine world. Other than the numerical point rating I think he does a great job at that. By the way Gary is indirectly responding to you on his latest episode. Keep up the good work and tell us some more about your winemaking philosophy at Anne Amie, especially on the vineyard side. Rgds
January 24, 2008 | Unregistered Commenterjavier
lol - thanks for the heads up. I thought that was a very thoughtful and passionate show by Gary. Yet I still disagree with his premise that rapid fire judgments are similar to the consumers experience. Everyone I know relaxes and enjoys the wine over a glass-or-two or even a day-or-two if they don't finish the bottle. The way people really drink wine has noting to do with rapid fire judgments.

I have posted the entire episode above.
.
January 24, 2008 | Registered CommenterCraig Camp

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